sween
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Post by sween on Dec 13, 2015 1:18:11 GMT
Even tony watt scored lol
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Stu
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Post by Stu on Dec 13, 2015 2:40:30 GMT
Ye but celtic had big forster so thats an unfair advantage
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Бенне
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Post by Бенне on Dec 13, 2015 3:12:36 GMT
The point being argued is pretty much why I went for a longer period of time than one game: Munich was impressive, Arsenal's win was impressive and Gareth Bale was impressive but it was a one game thing: Football's one of those games were anything can and often does happen, and over the course of a season things often "balance out". Wigan's comeback wasn't one of those times though: this was a case of a team seriously upping it's game through tactical change and a sudden upturn in belief. Granted Arsenal had Eboue and Djourou but as I said in my opening statement, I really don't think any of that Wigan squad bar one or two who've moved onto bigger things could be considered anything above average, notable exceptions being McCarthy and McArthur among others.
United's comeback has rightly gone down in footballing folklore, and I have to admit I loved watching it back when I was of an age to understand it's importance and how downright ridiculous it was to score twice in injury time, BUT look at the goals. Two corners, poorly defended and scrambled in. The amount of luck that went into those two moments is greater than some clubs have received in their lifetimes. Wigan's run of course involved some luck, as every good run in history no doubt does at times, but over the course of 8 games, they outplayed their far more expensively assembled rivals and re-wrote the narrative of the season from a team that was doomed to relegation to one that did the impossible.
Why did I pick this over West Brom's then? The FA Cup win the following season is probably the main reason, as well as the quality of opposition that Wigan overcame in such a short space of time to achieve their escape. Cos argues quite rightly of the importance of that comeback to Spurs over the next year plus, but in that regard, surely neither Spurs nor Arsenal holds a candle to Wigan's comeback? A club that's over it's lifetime, NEVER won major silverware went on to win the FA cup the very next year as a direct result of remaining in the Premier League, making those 8 games even more crucial. Yes, Spurs may have had a very good 14 months but ask a Spurs fan in 20 years what they remember and I doubt it'll be "Those 14 months", over those 20 years even Spurs will most likely have won some silverware and that's what'll be remembered, likewise Arsenal. But ask ANY Wigan fan the same question, and find me a man who says anything but the FA Cup win and I'll find you a liar.
All in all, as impressive as a single game comeback is, the nature of football means that these can from time to time happen, and the logical extreme of that is that great comebacks like United's will happen, however rarely. But a continued period of punching VASTLY above your weight deserves greater respect as a comeback, especially when it leads to the defining moment in a club's history.
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Post by The Quito Diet on Dec 13, 2015 9:45:13 GMT
Celtic rebuff is invalid given it took place both the following season (where they finished runners up in the league and knocked out in the semi's of the CL) and they turned in a performance that was well below that they'd put in in previous games.
It wasn't just that we beat them; Hercules and Sociedad beat them that season too. It was that we beat them despite them playing at their absolute best. The quality of football was surreal, it's not as if Barcelona were poor and we hoofed it up for a goal against the odds.
Wigan staying up is an achievement but it's an achievement that is mirrored almost every year by somebody. Can't really include the FA Cup win as part of the comeback as it;s a cup competition, and their squad was no way near as weak as you're suggesting especially compared to the teams who eventually finished below them.
Rodallega, Moses, McMananman and Di Santo as a front line is more than enough to suggest they shouldn't be going down.
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Post by MrAndyJay on Dec 15, 2015 14:15:21 GMT
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Post by localnative on Dec 15, 2015 20:06:02 GMT
Sorry for the delay. MrAndyJay @djed Бенне ange postecoslamp Round ThreeThis round is your closing statements. Just like round one, each fighter gets one post. However, this time you can mention your opponents choice. This is your last chance to make sure no choice goes unchallenged.
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Post by The Quito Diet on Dec 15, 2015 22:26:46 GMT
In the 2010-2011 season, Barcelona went on to win the Champions League (losing just the once. To us. Have I mentioned that?), La Liga, the Spanish Super Cup and were runners up in the Spanish Cup. Sir Alex Ferguson, after watching this Barcelona side demolish his team in the Champions League final, described them as "the best team I have ever faced". And we came from behind and beat them. We were the only team to score more than one goal against Barcelona in that entire Champions League campaign. We were the only team to come from behind and actually beat Barcelona in that whole season. But it's not just what we did, but how we did it. I haven't even mentioned the goals so far, and whilst the first owes as much as it does to Van Persie's peg of a left foot as to Valdes ineptitude to cover his near post, the winning goal is of such beauty, of such craft, it really should be pinned up and highlighted as the perfect counter attack. Wilshere opens up his body to receive the ball on his left foot and with one touch stabs it into Fabregas. Fabregas swivels on the ball and with one quick look up, see's Nasri sprinting down the right into space and in one moment uses the outside of his foot to swerve and inch perfect pass right to him without the need to break stride. Nasri cuts back inside, and realises he's only got Bendtner for support. And so takes the right decision and holds onto the ball, until he see's a small Russian sprinting towards the edge of the box screaming for it. A simple square ball that bypasses the retreating defenders, a toe poke with minimal backlift that wrongfoots Valdes and a cocophony of noise that few goals have come close to matching within the ground. Fuck I get goosebumps just watching them again, I don't think you can be a fan of football and not appreciate the significance of that goal. I'm not even going to attempt to denigrate the other choices, they're all good examples of different comebacks focusing on trophies, relegation avoidance and emergences of a world class player; but none of them feature a winning goal of such beauty against what is widely regarded as the best ever team in football. And that's good enough for me.
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Post by The Quito Diet on Dec 17, 2015 20:29:08 GMT
Winner by default?
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Бенне
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Post by Бенне on Dec 17, 2015 20:58:50 GMT
Will do mine tomorrow afternoon, sorry!
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Post by MrAndyJay on Dec 17, 2015 20:59:14 GMT
Hold your horses. Xmas shopping is gay.
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Post by MrAndyJay on Dec 17, 2015 22:03:18 GMT
I had a great summation all worked out, full of some sharp debating. But I'm not going to read it. I'm hear to apologize. I am young...ish and I am inexperienced.
But you cannot hold Manchester United responsible for my shortcomings. You see, in all this football babble something has gotten lost, and that something is Istanbul.
Now, it is incumbent upon us debators not to just talk about football, but to actually watch it, to love it, to live it. Gary Lineker taught me that. Let's take Djed, for example. Now, obviously I would have never knowingly entered a debate with a certified internet forum moderator -- I hope you can believe that. But what is the truth? That he is a disgraced liar? And what if I told you that the comeback in question was nothing more than a faint blip on the radar of the team it was inflicted upon. Does that make his comeback more or less great?
What is it in us that defines a great comeback? Is it our minds or is it our hearts?
I set out to prove Manchester United could receive a fair trial in an online debate, that all football clubs are equal in the eyes of the judges. That's not the truth, because the eyes of the judges are probably scousers eyes -- biased and bigoted -- and until we can get them all down to the job centre and away from Jeremy Kyle, justice is never going to be evenhanded. It will remain nothing more than a reflection of our own prejudices, so until that day we have a duty under Messi to seek the greatest comeback, not with our eyes and not with our minds where fear and hate turn commonality into prejudice, but with our hearts -- where we don't know better.
Now I wanna tell you a story. I'm gonna ask ya'all to close your eyes while I tell you this story. I want you to listen to me. I want you to listen to yourselves.
This is a story about a little island nation in the north east atlantic. I want you to picture this little island. This little island, the birthplace of the sport we love and cherish. It took this little Island decades of struggle to reach the top of the mountain. Suddenly, a concrete wall collapsed. Fingers are pointed. The little island is banished. For five years they toil in the squalor of their own mess unable to reach out across the sea and win the hearts, minds and trophies on offer.
The five years pass. The little island starts to rebuild itself. Rebrand itself. It grows stronger and stronger by the day, taking each defeat on the chin and coming back for more again and again and again. Battered, bloodied, bruised and beaten for fourteen years.
Can you see it? The raped, beaten, broken body. Soaked in their blood, soaked in their sweat, soaked in their shame -- left to die.
Can you see it? I want you to picture that little island.
Now imagine, they win.
Alright, so I kinda stole most of that from A Time to Kill, awesome film btw, but the Chewbacca Defence wouldnt have made any sense seeing as you have to admit defeat before using it. Anyway, look, I'll understand if I lose out to Benneh, it's a fair shout even though the West Brom and Leicester stories are far greater imo. Coslamps is just.... ugh, I hate to just repeat myself, it's not a comeback. Being 3-2 down at Upton Park in the 89th minute or so and coming back to win it with pretty much the last kick of the game from Paul Stalteri of all people, for me, shits dirty dioherrea all over this. Djed, I know I picked on yours again in my speech, but it's the only one that fit, so... yeah, whatever. Thing is, I remember Arsenals vain attempt at a comeback against AC Milan in 2012 a lot better than the game you mentioned (probably cos Arsenal were 20/1 to qualify and I threw some money on it out of curiosity) and once again, Celtic (a shite Celtic team I might add) beat that exact same Barca team with added Fabregas not all that long after.
Summing up my own comeback is a bit like Inception, another awesome film. It's a comeback within a comeback, but the important part isnt Man United winning, it's an English club winning.
Thanks for reading. You've made a happy man, very old.
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Post by localnative on Dec 18, 2015 17:11:08 GMT
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Post by ange postecoslamp on Dec 18, 2015 18:45:47 GMT
I see djed's crowd reaction videos and I raise him this;
Proper comeback, that. And were it not for being the wrong kind of football, it would have been my choice.
You see, while his choice is, quite frankly, garbage - djed has touched on the essence of what makes moments great. It's not about technicalities or records, it's about the emotion it invokes. The sudden flip from inconsolable despair to unbridled optimism.
How many Arsenal fans left that game expecting the team to win at the Nou Camp and progress? It had taken an unprecedented performance to win 2-1, and the trip to Barcelona would be no easier. The elation of the moment was quickly tempered by the rational thought in the back of every fan's mind that it probably wouldn't last - that they would travel to Spain next week and be eliminated anyway.
Likewise, as Wigan fans celebrated their escape, did any fan in that stadium expect anything more than the same again next year?
For Spurs, those 3 goals marked the point at which anything could happen. We had just made the European champions look lost for one half of football. We could, and did, beat them at home, and top the group. That fixture and the home reverse marked the most optimistic period in Spurs' living history. Emotionally, there was no limit to where that game could lead us.
As for Man United, it's the comeback that your accountant's accountant would like. 2 goals in stoppage time. A technical display of 5 minutes of clinical football like no other. But watching it, for me, evokes no emotion, and not just because I'm not a United fan. AGUEROOOOO captured the nation's hearts because the goal lived up to the moment, the moment lived up to the emotion in the stadium. You can feel that goal just by watching it. Watching Solksjaer bundle home from close range just doesn't suit the sudden and dramatic turn of events that it was.
I remember the way that 4-3 made me feel, and maybe it's my bias but it's the one that truly resonates with my emotions. And what's a comeback without emotion?
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Бенне
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Post by Бенне on Dec 18, 2015 19:15:41 GMT
I have no large paragraph prepared for this, and I'm not going to go over old ground and repeat myself, but I will quickly summarise why this comeback is to my mind, the greatest of all time. I've said it before, but a comeback over an extended period of time for me always trumps game situation comebacks. For a team to come back from the brink to win a game is impressive, and some of the comebacks mentioned are brilliant, but none of them take the continued, extended brilliance that Wigan managed to put together, made even more impressive by the situation they found themselves in. Died can claim that a team of Wigan's quality should easily stay up, but the facts disagree. Wigan were perennial strugglers, and the next year fell to the second tier, the following year as far down as league one. Granted the team changed hugely, but Wigan as a team had reached their level, and for a few years, managed to exceed it. But to do so in the face of such adversity, in a situation many would consider impossible takes something much more.
Djed also says you can't claim the FA Cup as part of this comeback, but I strongly disagree. That victory simply wouldn't have happened without those great 8 games, and while the trophy was handed out a year later, it owes itself directly to that run of form. Wigan Football Club's defining moment owes itself to this. To what Roberto Martinez and his players achieved almost 12 months earlier.
Again, sorry I haven't been able to prepare a longer, more developed argument but I've been rushed off my feet this week. I will end with this though: how do you define a great comeback? Against all odds? Check. Moments of brilliance? Check. Completely unexpected? Check. Leads to something tangible? Check. But most of all, a great comeback should be about a team coming from the brink of oblivion to achieve something great. And nothing highlights that better than Wigan's Greatest escape of all.
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Post by MrAndyJay on Dec 19, 2015 5:21:28 GMT
Fair play lads, enjoyed that. Look forward to doing it again some time.
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