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Post by Maskya Yoshida on May 28, 2014 9:32:36 GMT
I agree with you, think there's going to be a vastly larger amount of rapists who get away with it than non-rapists who get convicted, ergo the problem with the law if there is one is not that false accusations are the issue. I think they are a big issue. I have genuine sympathy for anyone and everyone who is ever accused of it wrongly whether through malicious intent or misunderstanding. However, the problem for me is when it is bought up while discussing rape. I think that's one of the main points, many people believe that any individual who falsely accuses someone of rape is doing it as a deliberate deceptive act; either to provide an alibi, seek revenge or obtain sympathy. But that's not always, or mostly the case. A large proportion of false rape accusations are due to false memories and delusional states in which they believe their accusation to be valid and true, they're not doing it as a malicious act. The problem with people mentioning false rape and its statistics (which their are no definitive statistics anyway) is that it almost leads people to be wary of when anyone comes forward in case the accusation is false, which is the complete opposite as to what should be done. This is probably one of the only times my Masters is worthwhile and can bring some knowledge to a discussion.
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Post by Grant Wahl on May 28, 2014 10:05:57 GMT
You know what? Fuck this, fuck you. False accusations are awful, truly disgustingly awful. But that last bit is fucking bullshit, my friend was laughed out of the police station after she reported being raped because she took 3 days to report it. Another friend is unlikely to get a conviction on the guy who locked her in his room for 4 hours essentially torturing her, beating her, cutting her clothes and leaving her with cut marks. That guy still lives in an apartment she can see from her bedroom window, he still goes to my fucking university, and he is unlikely to ever be put to trial. Sure maybe when stuff hits newspapers people start judging people as guilty but this does not happen a large majority of the time. Oh and by the way 'teach men not to rape' is about teaching them what consent means and is important because that shit isn't covered by the general perception of rape. It's about pointing out that emotional manipulation or humiliation isn't acceptable, not just the traditional view of a dark alley, that rape can even happen between partners. It's not so much an 'all men are rapists' thing, it's a 'here's what rape is, here is how it affects people.' Unfortunately people see the title and don't what it's about, admittedly on both sides. what happened to your friend was unfortunate, but it wasn't really what i was trying to get at all. i'd be upset too if i were you. and the police were dicks. but i was talking about a guy who was suspended from his job because he was accused of being a rapist when there was no evidence, just allegation. i was talking about 5 guys who had to go through police investigations for rape (in separate occasions) due to a report made by the same woman (she was eventually jailed... after 8 years of doing it) i was talking about a father who spent 10 plus years because his own daughter claimed that he raped her... only for her to come out years later to say that he didn't do anything at all. and say you hooked up with a girl last night...only to find out she filed a report against you, don't tell me that people wouldn't assume that you're a rapist before you could prove your innocence? and while these things don't happen often, they happen more than they should. the reason why there's only 60% conviction rate is partially because it's not easy to determine unless you report it as soon as possible. i understand that it'd be hard for a victim to report it as soon as possible with psychological trauma and whatnot, but then would it be fair to convict someone without compelling evidence? should we jail 3 innocent men in hope of sending one actual rapist to jail? ---- and when these "feminists" women talk about teach men not to rape, they usually imply that men are potential rapists. i can probably give you a few examples within 30 seconds if you insist. again, i'm not saying that this is what most feminists believe in. i've said it here, and i've said it on the old forum, that when i refer to feminists, i usually refer to the extreme ones- mainly because they're the ones who speak the loudest. and they're the ones who are usually being discussed/ made fun of. i don't have problems with level headed feminists. imo, people are aware of consent. it's not like you need to put a sign "don't steal" to remind people or even go as far as "teach all men not to steal". it's a common sense. But i'm aware there can be gray areas when it comes to sexual consent, unfortunately. you had too much to drink, so did she (and not because you spiked her drink/ encouraged her to drink more than it should've been). both of you made a conscious decision to have sex, albeit drunk. In the eyes of the law, you are technically a rapist. if you're drunk, and you're aware she's not giving you a consent, then you're a rapist. there's no way around it. no matter how fucked up you are, if she said no, then there's no consent. That's not what I have problem with. When someone gives consent out of fear, I'll never consider it as consent either. People are aware of that. If not, then they deserve to be in jail.
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sween
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Post by sween on May 28, 2014 11:09:12 GMT
what have i done
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jaffers
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Post by jaffers on May 28, 2014 22:50:17 GMT
Got bored and did that on tumblr, awaiting for a fun reaction.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2014 23:07:16 GMT
You've created a monster.
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jaffers
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Post by jaffers on May 28, 2014 23:25:58 GMT
'MEN AND WOMEN ARE EQUAL' 'ALL MEN ARE PIGS'
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Star of Spurs
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Post by Star of Spurs on May 28, 2014 23:30:40 GMT
Grant Wahl: I get what you're saying regarding false rape accusations. It's also completely wrong. Yes, some people are these terrible lying wastes of existence that either do not understand the extent of their accusations or are wilfully sociopathic. But they are far, far in the minority. I know you've gone into this but 60% of rape cases in America do not get reported, a lot of the time because the victim is scared. Scared of how their family will see them, scared that it'll change something, scared they'll have to go through such an arduous process, scared they'll be called a liar. This is part of the reason why 97% of rapists will not see a day in jail for doing one of the most horrific things a person can do. You choosing to err on the side of caution or playing devil's advocate is frankly missing the bigger picture. Again, it's terrible that those things happen - in an ideal world, they wouldn't. I hope you and I and everyone else on this forum never has to go through being accused of something so heinous. But you're buying into the far, far, far smaller possibility that you or people lioke you will be blamed compared to the real devastating issue that happens every single day. fwiw, the main reason "teach men not to rape" comes about is due to the reaction society has to rape cases. A lot of the time, it is victim blaming. It won't come out as such, but it will be. They'll ask who she was with, why was she alone, what was she doing wearing that, why would she leave her drink alone. It is breeding fear. And it is something fucking despicable that we as a society need to destroy.
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Kesh
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Post by Kesh on May 28, 2014 23:41:02 GMT
You know what? Fuck this, fuck you. False accusations are awful, truly disgustingly awful. But that last bit is fucking bullshit, my friend was laughed out of the police station after she reported being raped because she took 3 days to report it. Another friend is unlikely to get a conviction on the guy who locked her in his room for 4 hours essentially torturing her, beating her, cutting her clothes and leaving her with cut marks. That guy still lives in an apartment she can see from her bedroom window, he still goes to my fucking university, and he is unlikely to ever be put to trial. Sure maybe when stuff hits newspapers people start judging people as guilty but this does not happen a large majority of the time. Oh and by the way 'teach men not to rape' is about teaching them what consent means and is important because that shit isn't covered by the general perception of rape. It's about pointing out that emotional manipulation or humiliation isn't acceptable, not just the traditional view of a dark alley, that rape can even happen between partners. It's not so much an 'all men are rapists' thing, it's a 'here's what rape is, here is how it affects people.' Unfortunately people see the title and don't what it's about, admittedly on both sides. imo, people are aware of consent. it's not like you need to put a sign "don't steal" to remind people or even go as far as "teach all men not to steal". it's a common sense. But i'm aware there can be gray areas when it comes to sexual consent, unfortunately. you had too much to drink, so did she (and not because you spiked her drink/ encouraged her to drink more than it should've been). both of you made a conscious decision to have sex, albeit drunk. In the eyes of the law, you are technically a rapist. wait, what? is this worded badly because that last sentence just isn't true
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jaffers
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Post by jaffers on May 28, 2014 23:50:13 GMT
I wouldn't believe all the figures you read on the internet about rape for two reasons:
1) It's so hard to get an accurate report, given the nature of the crime. 2) People will only ever present you with the statistics that best serve their argument.
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Star of Spurs
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Post by Star of Spurs on May 28, 2014 23:51:13 GMT
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Post by Grant Wahl on May 29, 2014 0:01:32 GMT
Grant Wahl: I get what you're saying regarding false rape accusations. It's also completely wrong. Yes, some people are these terrible lying wastes of existence that either do not understand the extent of their accusations or are wilfully sociopathic. But they are far, far in the minority. 60% of rape cases in America do not get reported, a lot of the time because the victim is scared. Scared of how their family will see them, scared that it'll change something, scared they'll have to go through such an arduous process. This is part of the reason why 97% of rapists will not see a day in jail for doing one of the most horrific things a person can do. You choosing to err on the side of caution or playing devil's advocate is frankly missing the bigger picture. Again, it's terrible that those things happen - in an ideal world, they wouldn't. I hope you and I and everyone else on this forum never has to go through being accused of something so terrible. But you're buying into the far, far, far smaller possibility that you'll be blamed compared to the real devastating issue that happens every single day, and it (the general idea, not your belief specifically) is doing a lot of damage. fwiw, the main reason "teach men not to rape" comes about is due to the reaction society has to rape cases. A lot of the time, it is victim blaming. It won't come out as such, but it will be. They'll ask who she was with, why was she alone, what was she doing wearing that, why would she leave her drink alone. It is breeding fear. And it is something fucking despicable that we as a society need to destroy. are they far in minority, though? a research from US Air Force actually claims that 60% of rape accusations are false (but again, they didn't really explain what false rape accusations meant, it could be a fake report, or what Maskya Yoshida said earlier). But it's by no means a smaller possibility when it happens more than once or twice. And when they analyzed the records for a couple of cities, they found a similar trend. I mean, people like remy, van persie, etc were accused of rape. how many of them went to jail? how many of these charges were dropped? ched evans was the only one (that i remember) who was sent to jail. if i could find a new case of someone was falsely sent to prison for rape every week (or even fake accusations), then it imo, it happens too often. and if we're going to use that statistic you showed, then surely we can use another statistic from the same report, where fear of of reprisal/ getting offender in trouble is at the bottom of the list. and the 97% figure is an exaggeration. When they used 97% figure, RAINN assumed (i'm assuming that's where you get it from) that (i) all rape claims made to the police are true (ii) all unreported rape claims are true (iii) assumed that there are multiple rapists when in reality, it's usually a repeat offender. victim blaming is prevalent everywhere imo, not just in rape. But sometimes people (from either sides) could not separate the line between victim blaming and asking for explanation to complete the picture.
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Post by Grant Wahl on May 29, 2014 0:05:18 GMT
imo, people are aware of consent. it's not like you need to put a sign "don't steal" to remind people or even go as far as "teach all men not to steal". it's a common sense. But i'm aware there can be gray areas when it comes to sexual consent, unfortunately. you had too much to drink, so did she (and not because you spiked her drink/ encouraged her to drink more than it should've been). both of you made a conscious decision to have sex, albeit drunk. In the eyes of the law, you are technically a rapist. wait, what? is this worded badly because that last sentence just isn't true nah, in america it is. that's why i was obliged to tell the first year students about consent (in which they already knew, anyway) while under the influence, because it can bite them in the ass if they choose to ignore it. are they definitely going to jail for that? not always, but they'd still have to pay shitload for lawyers and stuff. tbf, i've read yesterday that in the uk, if you two were capable of giving consent (albeit very drunk), you'd be off the hook. it was apparently a defense that ched evans used on his trial, but it didn't work for him. it worked for someone else, though.
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jaffers
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Post by jaffers on May 29, 2014 0:08:08 GMT
Like I said, they will use the statistics that best suit their argument by nature.
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Kesh
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Post by Kesh on May 29, 2014 0:22:43 GMT
wait, what? is this worded badly because that last sentence just isn't true nah, in america it is. that's why i was obliged to tell the first year students about consent (in which they already knew, anyway) while under the influence, because it can bite them in the ass if they choose to ignore it. are they definitely going to jail for that? not always, but they'd still have to pay shitload for lawyers and stuff. tbf, i've read yesterday that in the uk, if you two were capable of giving consent (albeit very drunk), you'd be off the hook. it was apparently a defense that ched evans used on his trial, but it didn't work for him. it worked for someone else, though. oh shit fair do's, did not know that was the case, will look into that then, that's such a broad definition. And yeah you're kinda right, case is R v Bree (lol nerd), but yeah as long as she consumes the alcohol herself she can't blame the drink as not giving consent. consent is tricky to define, even if the girl is falling in and out of consciousness as a result of being drunk it still doesn't necessarily mean rape
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allah
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Post by allah on May 29, 2014 0:33:12 GMT
Like I said, they will use the statistics that best suit their argument by nature. I quoted 60% for the conviction rate for rapists. You're welcome to find a higher number than that.
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