allah
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Post by allah on Oct 19, 2014 20:41:07 GMT
Does anyone think there is a crime that would lead to a player never being accepted again? Obviously with some crimes the length of sentence would pretty much rule them out of a career, but if a more violent rape with almost undeniable guilt occurred would that still be ok for them to continue playing once released?
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Бенне
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Post by Бенне on Oct 19, 2014 20:42:49 GMT
Does anyone think there is a crime that would lead to a player never being accepted again? Obviously with some crimes the length of sentence would pretty much rule them out of a career, but if a more violent rape with almost undeniable guilt occurred would that still be ok for them to continue playing once released? Sadly I think that depends on talent. I certainly wouldn't want them at my club regardless of ability but a lot of football fans would most probably not care if they were that good.
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Star of Spurs
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Post by Star of Spurs on Oct 19, 2014 20:49:33 GMT
Yet the judge himself, as above, said she was in no condition to give consent walking into the hotel. So how can McDonald be cleared and Evans not? Consent is an absolute minefield to negotiate, especially when alcohol is involved. Guarantee every single person here has done something when drunk they'd never dream of doing when sober; what's to say this lass wasn't so drunk she thought it'd be a good idea at the time? After all, there's just as much evidence that that's the case than there is that she said no. She was threatened for her tweets that shined her as a gold digger, not for any other sinister reason. Judy Finnigan didn't say that either, she used the exact same wording the Judge used but of course that'll be ignored because it's easy to go on a good old witch hunt. Judge's quotes, again, for your interest; Bloody judges, saying a rape was less rapey. Of course a criminal record effects employability, just as it does in football. It's obviously to a different level across industries (you're far more likely to get a career as a football as a rapist than you are a police officer, say), but it's ludicrous to hold up football as some sort of bastion of ethics and morals and suggest it should bolt up the doors to a bloke who's served his punishment. apologies for late reply first off you can debate the specifics all you want, frankly we do not have the evidence that was given. the fact of the matter is there was enough proof for an independent jury to rule him guilty and mcdonald innocent. as for "what if she thought it was a good idea", that comes dangerously close to "what if she made it up" or "what if she changed her mind", which are dark dark routes to go down when it comes to cases like this where often the only form of evidence is testimony the judge's reasoning was given for a reduced sentence, talking about the length of his punishment. finnigan's is debating whether he should continue afterwards. in this context, it's basically "the rape wasn't violent, so it matters less", whether she means it or not, because i'm not sure why she'd have mentioned if that's not what she was at least slightly getting at. there's also a big, big difference between the ruling of a crown court judge and the musings of a host on loose women - the main one being that one has all the facts and one does not i'm not asking football to be a bastion of ethics and morals. i'm asking to consider whether putting a convicted rapist out on the pitch for adulation in the most global sport in the world says anything good about how the sport handles something like this
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Post by MrAndyJay on Oct 19, 2014 21:04:37 GMT
Served his time for what looks like a sketchy situation. He's a footballer by trade so why shouldnt he be allowed to go and play football? Because children will use him as their role model and grow up to become rapists. Obvious, innit? Extremely. Every Michael Jackson fan's a paedo and every Nirvana fan commited suicide.
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sween
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Post by sween on Oct 19, 2014 21:32:18 GMT
Does anyone think there is a crime that would lead to a player never being accepted again? Obviously with some crimes the length of sentence would pretty much rule them out of a career, but if a more violent rape with almost undeniable guilt occurred would that still be ok for them to continue playing once released? They shouldn't get the chance, their playing days should be way behind them by the time they get out of prison. But that's another argument.
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Post by The Quito Diet on Oct 19, 2014 21:59:42 GMT
first off you can debate the specifics all you want, frankly we do not have the evidence that was given. the fact of the matter is there was enough proof for an independent jury to rule him guilty and mcdonald innocent. What we do have, from the court note document Cashis linked and the various news stories reporting on it, is enough evidence to make it clear what their decision was based upon; she had no recollection of even going to the hotel (and thus how could she have given consent to McDonald but not Evans if already at such a state of intoxication), the only evidence we have about what occured was the testimonies of both men and unless McDonald has played a blinder or Evans fell apart, it's been their performance in court that's saved/cost them. Indeed it does, which is why her level of intoxication is such a pivotal part of the case. She can't remember going into the hotel. So therefore she can't remember if she said yes. She also can't remember if she said no. Bollocks is it that's a stretch of ridiculous proportions, no way did she say it matters less. The judge's reasoning for a reduced sentence is based around it being, in the eyes of the law, not as severe as a violent rape. So if his punishment from a judge is lesser based on that, why is suggesting his punishment from society will be lesser somehow seen as saying it was alright/less rapey/matters less. People will support who they want to support, there'll be Sheffield United fans who won't cheer him at all and there'll be Sheffield United fans who will; they won't be cheering for the convicted rapist Ched Evans, they'll be cheering for Sheffield United doing something positive. Bar a few wackjobs the likes of which are all over society sitting in corners with loudspeakers. Worded poorly that looking back but point is this whole argument that he's gonna come back and be treated as a hero is just an attempt at fancyifying the likely reality in that he'll return to a career of obscurity with very few people cheering for him.
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Childish
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Post by Childish on Oct 19, 2014 23:57:41 GMT
Mental.
Everyone wants criminals to reform and then a guy comes out of prison (in a sketchy case none the less) and people want to ban him from being able to play football.
The point about him getting cocky and raping people was so ridiculous it deserves a prison sentence as well tbh. If you want to make that point about football tempting him to rape people the somewhay feasable point is that he will be surrounded by lots of women and the opportunity to rape again...even it's a fairly silly point, you cannot just assume someone will rape again.
There are a lot of clubs who won't sign him. Just like there are a lot of companies who wouldt hire a convinced criminal.
But some clubs will. Just like some companies will, and they have every right to do so, because he has done the punishment seemed fitting for his crime.
He wasnt sentenced to 'x years in prison and no more football' lol.
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Post by ange postecoslamp on Oct 20, 2014 8:29:38 GMT
Can't say I paid any particular attention to the case but do remember seeing some of the 'victim's tweets after the fact about how she was super excited go to the Bahamas and buy loads of designer clothes with her compensation money which has skewed my view on the case enough to where I couldn't make an impartial judgement
Fully agree with the point that he has served the punishment that our legal system has deemed him accountable for and should now be left to continue with his life. Don't understand why the consensus here is that he has to serve the punishment that a load of faux-outraged kids on tumblr have deemed him accountable for on top of that?
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U R GAY
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Post by U R GAY on Oct 20, 2014 8:31:18 GMT
The point about him getting cocky and raping people was so ridiculous it deserves a prison sentence as well tbh. If you want to make that point about football tempting him to rape people the somewhay feasable point is that he will be surrounded by lots of women and the opportunity to rape again...even it's a fairly silly point, you cannot just assume someone will rape again. My point wasn't football turns people into rapists. My point was here's a rapist, let's look at what might have contributed to his decision to rape. By 'ego' I didn't mean 'cocky' either. Again, it's how you view the crime, as I explained before. If you view it as a one off minor crime with someone who got unlucky in his court case with the wrong girl at the wrong time then I can understand why you wouldn't see any issue with him playing again. I see it as less of an accident than that (not suggesting it was pre-meditated but I do think it was a conscious criminal decision)
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sween
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Post by sween on Oct 20, 2014 12:19:54 GMT
Again, it's how you view the crime, as I explained before. If you view it as a one off minor crime with someone who got unlucky in his court case with the wrong girl at the wrong time then I can understand why you wouldn't see any issue with him playing again. not for me. guilty or not; he has served the punishment that our legal system has deemed him accountable for and should now be left to continue with his life whether it was a botched vedict is beside the point really
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Star of Spurs
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Post by Star of Spurs on Oct 20, 2014 12:34:58 GMT
i don't think the intention behind people not wanting him to play again is to do with punishing evans twice and more to do with not setting a precedent wherein a person can be convicted for a crime such as rape and return to the field in a few years. rape victims have to deal with the fallout constantly, and are subjected to abuse and accusations (not just in this case, i'm using this as an emblematic thing), which is why the number of recorded rapes is so low compared to what is happening. to allow him to continue in such a privileged (both financially & socially) field would seem to value the prospects of the rapist over respect of the victim
i don't have any problem with evans having a life after this, he's twenty-five, within reason he should be able to do what he wants, it's not like his choices are football or nothing. if on appeal he's found innocent then there's nothing that should stop him from returning to sheffield united or anywhere else. but he should not play again
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sween
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Post by sween on Oct 20, 2014 12:37:42 GMT
the precedent has already been set, lee hughes and luke mccormick are playing football
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Star of Spurs
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Post by Star of Spurs on Oct 20, 2014 12:47:36 GMT
but that isn't a good thing and it doesn't mean it should be accepted. i don't feel that asking for murderers and rapists not to have a place in football is setting the bar particularly high
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Post by The Quito Diet on Oct 20, 2014 12:53:45 GMT
i don't think the intention behind people not wanting him to play again is to do with punishing evans twice and more to do with not setting a precedent wherein a person can be convicted for a crime such as rape and return to the field in a few years. rape victims have to deal with the fallout constantly, and are subjected to abuse and accusations (not just in this case, i'm using this as an emblematic thing), which is why the number of recorded rapes is so low compared to what is happening. to allow him to continue in such a privileged (both financially & socially) field would seem to value the prospects of the rapist over respect of the victim i don't have any problem with evans having a life after this, he's twenty-five, within reason he should be able to do what he wants, it's not like his choices are football or nothing. if on appeal he's found innocent then there's nothing that should stop him from returning to sheffield united or anywhere else. but he should not play again You're using this one case as an emblematic thing as if it can just speak for all rape cases everywhere, which just isn't logical. There are specific reasons why the victim in this case has been abused, don't act as if it's indiciative of a wider problem that all rape victims will endure. The number of recorded rapes and subsequent convictions is low for a multitude of reasons that people far more intelligent than you or I can't agree on so we'll leave that one. However, the argument that he shouldn't be allowed to play again just doesn't have any foundation I can see other than at it's simplest level being "Well he's a bad man he shouldn't earn so much money". No part of his sentencing said "5 years in prison and you're never allowed to earn a lot of money in a high profile job again". Are we just expected to create special rules for 'special' people because it suits certain peoples agendas? I mean, fuck, why should we let him work in a supermarket either, what respect does that show in the victim if she needs to go shopping? Bus driver? Call centre worker? Fuck let's just stop him from working altogether out of respect for the victim. I'm sure there won't be any complaints whatsoever about a convicted criminal being refused work and therefore living off the state.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 13:02:36 GMT
shall we look at the 'victim' too for context? I mean generally I think a rapist deserves their life to be ruined for ruining a life but this bitch seems to enjoy the fact she was raped judging by her Twitter etc.
he's improved her life tbh he deserves a bigger contract.
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