Mycon
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Con My-Ji also acceptable
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Post by Mycon on Mar 21, 2014 10:55:58 GMT
So a lot of talk of Wenger coming up to 1,000 games, how do you think that he rates among the best managers of all-time? Is he in that category?
Is long-term stability an underrated achievement? Will 10 years without a trophy in the middle of his career affect his standing among the best managers? How impressive was the Invincibles season in comparison to double or treble seasons that other teams have had?
I'm a fan of Wenger but no Champions League is a big miss plus you would expect him to have won more trophies.
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Post by Heung-Min Pleat on Mar 21, 2014 11:34:40 GMT
I'm not sure if its his standards or Arsenals which have fallen over the last decade but its one of the two. Yes you can factor in the new stadium, the nouveau riche of the league but Arsenal still and consistently have had one of the three or four biggest wage bills in the league in that time. If we were to go back 10 years to their last trophy it was a time when every season you'd expect Arsenal to, if not win the league then at least take the champions to the wire. It's been a different ball game in the Abramovich era but where he now has had in recent years Man City, Chelsea and Man United (amongst them) to compete with, before this the level of competition was still there with United, Liverpool and to a lesser degree Leeds, Newcastle and Chelsea.
Right away he made possibly the two most significant transfers in the leagues history, Vieira and Henry and the standards unsurprisingly waned from them eventually leaving because these were the foundation for what might have actually been the most successful period in Arsenals history (I might be wrong excuse the ignorance), both were genuine all round world class talents, point winners and inspiration the likes of which are to all likely and realistic situations irreplaceable, any team is going to have a period of suffering losing them. But since there has been times where you don't know whether its been blind-faith in his existing players or just plain blindness where Arsenal have been screaming for a certain (or certain type) of player and he's been oblivious to this.
I think he should be considered one of the greats, certainly within the UK at least because he's probably the most pioneering manager of all, or certainly of our generation, science, training, scouting, preparation and conditioning in the 21st century game owe a lot to his methodology.
That said I'm saying that now, it would ultimately depend on how much longer he's at Arsenal for and if they don't win another League or European trophy in that period, the FA Cup this season will be a good achievement for this season but is only something to build on in the longer term for a club and manager like Wenger.
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Post by Gianni Infantino on Mar 21, 2014 11:56:05 GMT
I think he's probably up there with this country's most successful. Definitely top 10 but his lack of European success puts him behind the likes of Fergie, Shankly, (I know he didn't win any but set the foundation) Paisley, Clough, Busby. But if you take every manager in the league now at their prime, he's miles ahead. He had his teams playing dominant and entertaining football for over a decade.
His legacy might be a bit tarnished now with the lack of success he's had since 2005 and even more so now with actually spending big money on new players and big contracts but it's probably to give him a chance of one more title which on the basis of what he's done for arsenal he deserves.
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U R GAY
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Post by U R GAY on Mar 21, 2014 12:10:52 GMT
The collective circle-jerk over him from the journalists this morning was cringeworthy, especially seeing as they've spent the last 3 or 4 years out-right disrespecting him at every opportunity.
FWIW, I don't think he's in Ferguson's class and I disagree with some of his methods but I do think his achievements & longevity deserve respect and he's up there, would have no problem putting him top 25 all-time.
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Cashis
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Post by Cashis on Mar 21, 2014 12:18:50 GMT
One of the best and I don't think people realise how restricted he has been since the stadium move in terms of budget compared to say United, Liverpool and City and he never once complained openly about the board. Classy bloke.
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Post by The Quito Diet on Mar 21, 2014 13:20:46 GMT
I'll whack a longer post up later.
For now, all I'll say is a supposed 'drought' of trophies (relative to our history pre-Wenger) is wholly acceptable once you actually visit the Emirates and look how far we've come under him.
Look at Spurs and Liverpools inability to resolve their stadium situations and then realise that we were able to solve ours, without support as others are seeking, whilst remaining in the Champions League every season.
Arsene was spot on earlier, yes its not nice to go without trophies, but would you sacrifice all the big games we've had in the CL in that period for a one-off cup win? I doubt it'd abate the media or the fans
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Post by Heung-Min Pleat on Mar 21, 2014 13:29:03 GMT
What were the politics like behind the Emirates djed? I can't remember but was it plain sailing with regard to permission, pricing and the rest?
Because a couple of miles down the road and we're fuck all closer to a stadium being built (6 yrs after announcing plans) but we have got a shiny new Sainsburys being built
Don't wanna take the thread off topic but still
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Post by LiamJM10 on Mar 21, 2014 13:51:04 GMT
Best manager in the league without doubt imo. Remarkable how he came from virtually nowhere and has become so successful. Lack of funds hampered him recently, in tandem with losing good players and not being able to replace them adequately. I can't bring myself to dislike him. Wish he'd have listened to some of Arsenal's mongy fans and left though.
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wf4v3ry
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Post by wf4v3ry on Mar 21, 2014 14:16:46 GMT
Second best manager to manage in the Premier League era behind Sir Alex Ferguson.
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Post by Heung-Min Pleat on Mar 21, 2014 19:04:09 GMT
Excellent piece on Wenger in the Evening Standard tonight if anyone gets to read it
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Post by The Quito Diet on Mar 21, 2014 21:14:08 GMT
Heung-Min PleatWatched a documentary on our stadium the other night actually that you may be interested in (ino you liked your sports documentaries); But yeah, we got no funding from the local council like Spurs are seeking, nor support from the council with local residents as Liverpool are seeking. Financially it was a miracle we got the funding we did, if we'd have lost CL football at any point during construction and even the first few years after the move, we'd have been in a perilous position. To relate it back to Wenger, he was an important fixture throughout the entire construction. The dressing rooms were designed to his ideas and beliefs (home dressing room has no sharp edges, communal feel to it, feng shui positives etc..., away dressin room is sharp, boxy, meant to be negative). Even the height of the benchs was something he took details of. Think comparisons with Ferguson ultimately will be futile until Wenger has left, both massively transformed their clubs but it'll only be at the end of Wenger's era that you can accurately compare. What I will say though is that this following stat surprised me; In terms of what he's done for us as a club, as I said earlier anyone who's visited the Emirates will appreciate that he is one of the key people who's made it possible. Best stadium in the country by a mile (obviously biased opinion but a lot of others with greater experience than I have agreed), also gave us massively upgraded training grounds and training regimes. All of it would have been highly improbable without Wenger at the helm. In terms of what he's done for English football, it's harder to directly attribute certain things solely to him, but one thing that definitely stems from changes he made at Arsenal is the diet implementation for players; when he came in post-match food was a Mars bar on the bus, pre-match refreshment was a couple of cans on the bus. These days players come off the training pitch and have ready made and individually personalised meals and shakes prepared for them, and it was he t hat drove these changes. He's also continually nurtured young talent, be it a necessity or not, something that many other teams in similar positions simply haven't chosen or been able to do. The style of football he promotes has altered throughout his tenure but throughout it has also been attractive football that people want to watch. For me, I'm writing this with the following feeling still fresh on my mind; walking past the old East Stand of Highbury, down the road and then up the steps until the Emirates just appears across the trainline. That feeling, that awe, it'd have been pretty much impossible without Arsene. I know I've focused on the stadium aspect a lot but it's the one I can relate to the most, even as someone who only gets to a few games a season, because I'm more attatched to the club now where I'm in a position to go and see them in the flesh than I was when I was growing up and we were winning things or going a season unbeaten. Going an entire league campaign unbeaten is something that should be used to counter the claims that he can't be considered to be one of the best managers due to his lack of European success, in my opinion. It's a monumentally rare achievement of almost immeasurable difficultly, yet I feel it's sometimes overlooked. Agree with Jimbo about the circlejerk, even Neil fucking Ashton is joining in. I'm waffling, but basically the man is a genius, everyone who's worked with him (even those who've left in acrimonious fashion) agrees, when people talk of greatest managers in England he's easily up there with Ferguson and if we're going back a long time he's still up there with the best of them.
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Post by Heung-Min Pleat on Mar 22, 2014 8:53:41 GMT
Nice one I will give that a watch, and yeah what you said about the CL qualification being imperative I read that elsewhere yesterday (tried looking into it myself) and only heightens the importance of the job Wenger has done. Also I read the timing by Arsenal was perfect even if unintentional because a few years later and you'd have been faced with huge problems for construction economically
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Post by ChappyHova on Mar 22, 2014 11:56:29 GMT
2nd only to Fergie in the Premier League era and that's not bad now is it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 19:48:44 GMT
Going an entire league campaign unbeaten is something that should be used to counter the claims that he can't be considered to be one of the best managers due to his lack of European success, in my opinion. It's a monumentally rare achievement of almost immeasurable difficultly, yet I feel it's sometimes overlooked. Tbf that 'invincibles' season is never overlooked, the team is often waxed lyrical about, but I think there's an argument they're not even the best Arsenal team under Wenger - 97-99. Part of the reason it's so unique is because the truly top teams of the decade - current Bayern, Barca 09, United 08, Milan 06/07, Chelsea 04/05 - wouldn't have been able to do it as they were genuinely competing on all fronts.. and that Arsenal team weren't.. not really. It's harsh because they were a very good side but if we're talking about that level then they weren't there. For me, a team dominating on all fronts over that any day, I don't think you can compare it to that. Today was a pretty good summary of why Wenger probably won't be remembered as one of the top, top managers (ie: top 5 or 10). It just happens far too often where he's sending his team out like that and there on the end of a total capitulation. There was a table going around a while ago of all the top strikers in Europe of the time and their record against big teams. The stats were absolutely ludicrous against Arsenal - Drogba, Rooney etc. They've all taken the piss at one stage or another. Even with their most horrendous sides the likes of Fergie/Mourinho would never be allowing that sort of embarrassment on a regular basis. It's hard not to admire, even if I don't particularly like Wenger - particularly when he's winning, fucking unbearable for me, the work he's done at Arsenal that you outlined in your post but I can't help but feel he could've done a lot of that had he moved upstairs a while ago into some Director of Football type role and they got a better 'coach' in. Steve Bould has clearly done a lot of good work with the defence in the last few seasons but ahead of that some of the midfield protection offered in games like today has been fucking horrendous year after year in big games. He's done fantastic to compete with some of the money teams recently but there's always going to be that nagging doubt from Arsenal fans that they were closer to doing just that bit more. Saw a stat earlier that it's 502 competitive games without a trophy, that's a bloody long time.
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jaffers
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Post by jaffers on Mar 22, 2014 20:17:31 GMT
Definitely a class manager, people will always mention his lack of trophies lately but you have to look at what he had to work with. The fact he's stood by the style of football he has his team play for so long, and still achieves a good level of success with it is impressive. Could you imagine what Arsenal would be like this season if they'd managed to keep Fab/RVP/Nasri? Think it's hard to argue his ability, given the majority of the time he's had them at least battling for top four.
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