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Post by ChappyHova on Mar 23, 2014 1:23:05 GMT
Winning cups requires a fair amount of luck not just being the best team. Winning the league and especially going unbeaten proves a lot.
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Mycon
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Post by Mycon on Mar 23, 2014 1:38:17 GMT
Winning cups requires a fair amount of luck not just being the best team. Winning the league and especially going unbeaten proves a lot. Winning cups though and the league? Say for example losing only four games in all competitions in United's case in 1999 as opposed to losing six games in all competitions for Arsenal in 2004? Wiki tells me that Boro beat them twice that year!
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Post by Gianni Infantino on Mar 23, 2014 1:42:37 GMT
Why I find the league unbeaten more impressive is that games come a lot more often. Champions League is every two weeks, FA Cup is every two/three weeks and nobody cares about the league cup. With the league you can have three games in a week, all of which are important games where playing your strongest lineup is most important. So for Arsenal to have gotten to the second knockout stage of the Champions League as well as two cup semi-finals, it's quite ridiculous they went unbeaten.
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Post by ChappyHova on Mar 23, 2014 1:44:40 GMT
Cups always takes luck though which is why league is valued higher for me.
Yeah we beat them in the cup semi final both legs but they played the likes of Bentley.
If you take 1999 for example United score 2 in the dying minutes of one final and Bergkamp misses a pen in the dying minutes of the fa cup semi.
It's a great achievement of course but it does take a certain amount of luck along the way.
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Mycon
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Post by Mycon on Mar 23, 2014 1:53:20 GMT
Cups always takes luck though which is why league is valued higher for me. Yeah we beat them in the cup semi final both legs but they played the likes of Bentley. If you take 1999 for example United score 2 in the dying minutes of one final and Bergkamp misses a pen in the dying minutes of the fa cup semi. It's a great achievement of course but it does take a certain amount of luck along the way. You can't say that going unbeaten doesn't take a bit of luck as well though, of course it does too. Ruud Van Nistelrooy last minute penalty miss? Remember with all the players surrounding him afterwards? That's very lucky to keep up the record.
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Post by ChappyHova on Mar 23, 2014 2:02:34 GMT
Of course it takes a little bit of luck here and there but over the course of 38 games to stay unbeaten must mean you were a very very good side.
In a cup a bit of luck keeps you in it or gets you knocked out.
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Mycon
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Post by Mycon on Mar 23, 2014 2:04:55 GMT
I get what you mean and I agree over the course of a league season the best team wins but in the case of this specific record, one loss and you're the team that were nearly the Invincibles so the same sort of luck is needed because you can't fuck up at all to have no losses.
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notpropaganda
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Post by notpropaganda on Mar 23, 2014 2:24:33 GMT
Tbf to back up what Mycon's saying, the Chelsea team in 04-05 lost one game in the league, City away. Anelka scored a pen.
I think the Arsenal unbeaten season is great but nobody really mentions that Chelsea were a game away from the same achievement the following year. Everyone acknowledges the unbeaten season but personally if it came down to that Chelsea team being unbeaten in the league or winning the CL/FA Cup on top of the league and league Cup that year, I'd take the extra cup.
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Mycon
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Post by Mycon on Mar 23, 2014 10:01:11 GMT
Chelsea also got something like 95 points and conceded 15 odd goals or something as well didn't they? That goals conceded stat is really impressive.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 11:29:22 GMT
i think what seperates Wenger from the upper level of managers is that he isn't ruthless enough. Far too many times he's shown to much loyalty to players who have simply let him down and far too much belief in players that simply weren't good enough. Dunno how many times a 28 pages spread in one of the rags would be dedicated to Arsenal beating a League 1 team 2-0 in the Worthington cup with a team solely of 17 year olds.
I think the problem with the Arsenal invincable season was just that, they felt untouchable.It was downhill from there.Madness because in terms of quality they're weren't as good as the double winning teams of 98 and 02. Wenger should have spotted that some of the players had their head in he clouds because of 03/04.
Vieira was hopeless the season before he was sold to Juventus, Pires was geting older, Lljunberg was getting older and injured and yet Wenger kept them around without any replacements because he was too loyal. Henry as good as he was, didn't seem to have his heart as much after just how untouchable he himself was in 03/04. It might sound silly but Wenger should have dismantled that team much quicker (ala Ferguson with Ince, Kanchelkis etc..)
to sum him up, top 3 manager in prem league history, great style of football (if somewhat overstated). Probably the worst loser in Premier League history
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Cashis
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Post by Cashis on Mar 23, 2014 15:12:51 GMT
Chelsea also got something like 95 points and conceded 15 odd goals or something as well didn't they? That goals conceded stat is really impressive. aye that Chelsea team were stunning. And still couldn't go the season unbeaten, nor do the treble. Showing how rare both achievements are.
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Cashis
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Post by Cashis on Mar 23, 2014 15:15:49 GMT
Domestic cup semi's and an 87th minute goal in the CL quarters, hardly like we went out early in all competitions and could focus solely on the league was it? Well no but I seem to remember Arsenal being very hyped for getting draws come the end of that season when they were out of everything else. 26 wins, 12 draws and 90 points with 'just' a league title to show for it? Of course I'm being harsh but if you think it should get more recognition the only way it is going to do so is if that side is compared to other great teams from the last 10-15 years, for me they don't stack up. Nowhere near. By the same token I don't think the Juve side that did it recently do either tbh, compare those two to Barca, Bayern or United? Absolute no brainer, don't need to argue investments, injuries or whatever it's a non-starter. And of course Wenger would've been as well regarded had he won a treble, he'd have won a Champions League for starters. Success in Europe is where most people start when talking about the very top managers that there have ever been. Again, it's harsh, but if you're going to throw people like Ferguson, Paisley or Clough into the ring then you have to be. We're talking about the achievement, not the quality of the team he built at that point? If anything, the Bayerns and Barcelonas of recent times, they're miles ahead of our invincibles team, and even they haven't been able to go a season unbeaten (so far anyway). It shouldn't matter that you don't think that was the best team Wenger has put together, their accomplishments as a team were.
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