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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2020 11:29:59 GMT
I’ve pondered on this for a little bit and am now fully prepared for the inevitable disagreement.
The Invincibles are overrated. A season unbeaten is a phenomenal achievement but drawing 12 games isn’t. They were very lucky not to lose to a newly promoted team early on in that season. By comparison, I think City have been the best team in Premier League history for the past three seasons. I even think a few of Chelsea’s title winning teams have been better than the invincibles. I can understand the hype, I just don’t agree with it.
On the same note, the 1999 United team. The treble is a great accomplishment but they had one of the lowest winning points totals in league history and Bayern completely collapsed in the champions league final. They’re given their credit based on the accomplishment not on how good the football was. Which is fine, but they’re not as good as any of the teams I’ve mentioned above.
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Post by The Quito Diet on Mar 21, 2020 12:44:41 GMT
Overrated based on what they actually achieved trophy wise? Fair. They massively under achieved and their record isn't a reflection of just how good they were for me.
Fact is, nobody has done what they've done since. There have been teams who have won more, picked up more trophies. But until someone puts in an unbeaten league season, they're unmatched in that regard.
Do I think Jose's first Chelsea or Pep's City or this Liverpool are 'better' teams? Maybe. I definitely don't think the invincibles are far and away the best ever PL team but I also feel their achievement is always discredited at the exact moment each season when the last team loses.
They also should have won so much more.
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Post by The Quito Diet on Mar 21, 2020 12:46:17 GMT
Also depends if you're rating the goal or the occasion? Should they not be separate? And it bothers me that he shins it because it makes it more of a fluke than skill. Nah always give a bit to the occasion as well, you just don’t see goals like that in those games often at all. He’s aiming for the far corner, hits it so sweetly and it flies in, you lot are mad it’s an incredible goal. Doesn’t Van Persie’s ridiculous goal vs Charlton also come off his shin? Yeah and I don't get the hype with that goal either, Ayling's the other day was better. Fwiw I don't rate Ronaldo's free kicks as being great either because they're very much hit-and-hopers.
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notpropaganda
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Post by notpropaganda on Mar 21, 2020 12:54:24 GMT
That team should have won a CL. Though seeing them up against José’s Porto would’ve been interesting
I think they were a great side that underachieved. Jose’s first Chelsea side possibly falls in that bracket too, they were sensational that first year and again, should’ve won a CL.
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Pole Land
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Post by Pole Land on Mar 21, 2020 13:25:07 GMT
Invincibles. If only Ruud hadn't hit the bar...
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Mycon
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Post by Mycon on Mar 22, 2020 17:50:28 GMT
Always thought the Invincibles were overrated, but have been watching some old football videos from the 2000s and they really did play some lovely stuff. They were United's biggest rivals at the time so I don't think I appreciated just how good they were. But I'd still say that the 2003/04 Invincibles season was overrated and the 2001/02 season was underrated, think they scored in every match and didn't lose an away game. As the OP said, Zidane is massively overrated by some. There was a Twitter poll of who was the best player between Messi, Maradona and Ronaldo and there were comments under it saying Zidane... Just not in that bracket. Never anywhere near as consistent as that level of player, for Juventus or Real Madrid. He had his great days but you had to sacrifice a lot of your team to see the best of them and even then he could let you down with indiscipline or just go through 5 or 6 game periods where he wasn't arsed. He is more worthy of comparing to the Kaka, Nedved, Rivaldo, Figo type level than the Messi/Ronaldo level. Scholes was one of my favourite players ever, but have to agree that some overrate him. Saw Piers Morgan (great source I know) put him in his greatest ever XI, he just wasn't the level of Pirlo, Xavi, Iniesta etc. When he and Roy Keane played together, everyone thought Keane was a better player until Keane retired, then Scholes started to get the praise. But still give me Scholes over Gerrard...
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notpropaganda
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Post by notpropaganda on Mar 23, 2020 12:33:56 GMT
As the OP said, Zidane is massively overrated by some. There was a Twitter poll of who was the best player between Messi, Maradona and Ronaldo and there were comments under it saying Zidane... Just not in that bracket. Never anywhere near as consistent as that level of player, for Juventus or Real Madrid. He had his great days but you had to sacrifice a lot of your team to see the best of them and even then he could let you down with indiscipline or just go through 5 or 6 game periods where he wasn't arsed. He is more worthy of comparing to the Kaka, Nedved, Rivaldo, Figo type level than the Messi/Ronaldo level. I think it's kinda unfair to compare anyone to Messi/Ronaldo, even someone like Maradona because of the fitness regimes, how well players are looked after these days, and the talent around both players as well. In terms of longevity you could argue Maradona only really did it for 4/5 years, but that misses so many aspects to his story (and his talent). Zidane was never consistent, it's true. But I think his peaks are well above the 4 you've listed there, it's a little unfair to him as well. He near single-handedly won the 2006 World Cup at the end of his international career. There's probably a bracket in between the unquestionable greatest of all time (Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona, Pele) and the greats who just aren't as good as them, where Zidane would fall into.
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Hogan
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Post by Hogan on Mar 24, 2020 18:20:35 GMT
Suarez
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Mycon
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Post by Mycon on Mar 28, 2020 15:21:02 GMT
As the OP said, Zidane is massively overrated by some. There was a Twitter poll of who was the best player between Messi, Maradona and Ronaldo and there were comments under it saying Zidane... Just not in that bracket. Never anywhere near as consistent as that level of player, for Juventus or Real Madrid. He had his great days but you had to sacrifice a lot of your team to see the best of them and even then he could let you down with indiscipline or just go through 5 or 6 game periods where he wasn't arsed. He is more worthy of comparing to the Kaka, Nedved, Rivaldo, Figo type level than the Messi/Ronaldo level. I think it's kinda unfair to compare anyone to Messi/Ronaldo, even someone like Maradona because of the fitness regimes, how well players are looked after these days, and the talent around both players as well. In terms of longevity you could argue Maradona only really did it for 4/5 years, but that misses so many aspects to his story (and his talent). Zidane was never consistent, it's true. But I think his peaks are well above the 4 you've listed there, it's a little unfair to him as well. He near single-handedly won the 2006 World Cup at the end of his international career. There's probably a bracket in between the unquestionable greatest of all time (Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona, Pele) and the greats who just aren't as good as them, where Zidane would fall into. You could also point to Kaka being the main reason Milan won the 2007 CL, Nedved being the best player in the 2003 CL and one of the best in the 2004 Euros, Figo was the galactico and considered the best player in the world the year before Zidane joined and was very good for Portugal as well. I think if you look at the overall seasons to season, he's not better than those players, in fact Juventus improved when Nedved came in for Zidane for example. But there was a certain majesty about Zidane I admit that you just can't really sum up with stats, the type that makes you want to watch football and he had that X-factor on his day that some other players didn't.
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Slim Jim
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Post by Slim Jim on Mar 28, 2020 22:14:05 GMT
This thread gave me the urge to play the 98/99 database I have for FM19, which is here if anyone wants it: s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=71041856951703993311It is based off a 96/97 database that someone converted, which I have spent far too much time updating and trying to polish and it is still quite rough. I believe all the Premier League teams are now correct, and I have tried to balance them to appropriate levels for the time. The major European teams have also been, broadly, updated too and the major players from the 1998 World Cup. It is far from perfect but you have Juventus with Zidane, Henry, Del Piero, Davids. Parma with Buffon, Cannavaro, Thuram, Veron, Crespo. Lazio with Vieri, Boksic, Nedved, Nesta. Then in Spain Barcelona have Figo, Rivaldo, Kluivert, and Real are just pre-Galacticos but have Hierro, Raul, Roberto Carlos, Seedorf, Suker. I would recommend playing a dummy game with the in-game editor turned on if you have it to try and spot anything you fundamentally disagree with (I have friends that have been furious that I've underrated Shearer and Fowler, for example). Also, a lot of players have a Current Ability, Potential Ability and a playing role as their only data input. I have put in as many dozens of players as I had the energy to but there are still some players that follow that, and I haven't yet got through putting in the hair/skin colour for all the players in top divisions so occasionally you get ones that are obviously wrong because they're randomised (most recent for me was Gazza being black, which I updated). As a Man Utd fan who was a kid at the time, it is obviously my favourite season and develops into the period when I started understanding football more so it is the perfect era for me. Something to enjoy while shut away in lockdown!
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