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Post by The Quito Diet on Jan 8, 2015 19:03:25 GMT
If they didn't think it was reasonable for him to believe that she was consenting then I suppose they must be implying that he should've realised she was too drunk to give valid consent. Which is back to my original points regarding deciding on the level/effect of intoxication 2 months after the event. Iirc he asked if he could join in, she said yes, when McDonald was finished she told Evans to "lick her out" and then after he'd done so they started having sex at which point she was telling him to "fuck her harder". I'm not sure which of that is Evans evidence, which of it is McDonald's and which of it is the overlap from the pair of them. But he's sought permission and got a positive reply, and if it were that and that alone I'd still think it's difficult to prosecute someone as a rapist. But then he's also been encouraged to perform a sex act on her, is he really going to be asking himself if she's capable of thinking clearly when she's telling him what she wants him to do?
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ic
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Post by ic on Jan 8, 2015 19:05:58 GMT
Depends. Rape is penetration with a penis, which includes surgically constructed ones but doesn't include dildos. But just because you CAN say they raped you, doesn't mean anyone would believe you. So you're saying that a woman forcing herself onto a man isn't rape
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Slim Jim
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Post by Slim Jim on Jan 8, 2015 19:10:05 GMT
But then he's also been encouraged to perform a sex act on her, is he really going to be asking himself if she's capable of thinking clearly when she's telling him what she wants him to do? In terms of the law of it, he should be asking himself exactly that.
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Slim Jim
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Post by Slim Jim on Jan 8, 2015 19:10:59 GMT
So you're saying that a woman forcing herself onto a man isn't rape Legally, no. Colloquially it'll probably still be called as such but the legal definition of rape is penetration with a penis.
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Post by The Quito Diet on Jan 8, 2015 19:12:48 GMT
But then he's also been encouraged to perform a sex act on her, is he really going to be asking himself if she's capable of thinking clearly when she's telling him what she wants him to do? In terms of the law of it, he should be asking himself exactly that. It's a question that in such a situation answers itself though, no? How could he possibly view her as a non-consenting victim if she's telling him what to do?
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Slim Jim
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Post by Slim Jim on Jan 8, 2015 19:14:31 GMT
How could he possibly view her as a non-consenting victim if she's telling him what to do? Well, as an example, one of my friends at Uni was dating a girl who got horrendously drunk and was begging him to fuck her in the arse. Even though it was his girlfriend and they'd done anal before, he realised that even though she was asking for it she was in no condition to consent to it so he put her to bed and didn't fuck her. But I know what you mean, and that's where a lot of these cases come from. But in terms of how it's viewed in court, he (or anyone) should be asking themselves if the person "consenting" to them is in a position to do so.
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ic
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Post by ic on Jan 8, 2015 19:15:40 GMT
Alright so with the examples used in this thread I'm a rapist as are most people that have had sex when pissed
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Slim Jim
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Post by Slim Jim on Jan 8, 2015 19:20:15 GMT
Alright so with the examples used in this thread I'm a rapist as are most people that have had sex when pissed I'm not entirely sure how you've come to that conclusion but I'm going to stop talking about rape now...
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Mycon
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Post by Mycon on Jan 8, 2015 20:21:31 GMT
How could he possibly view her as a non-consenting victim if she's telling him what to do? Well, as an example, one of my friends at Uni was dating a girl who got horrendously drunk and was begging him to fuck her in the arse. Even though it was his girlfriend and they'd done anal before, he realised that even though she was asking for it she was in no condition to consent to it so he put her to bed and didn't fuck her. But I know what you mean, and that's where a lot of these cases come from. But in terms of how it's viewed in court, he (or anyone) should be asking themselves if the person "consenting" to them is in a position to do so. Yet a lot of women get horrendously drunk every weekend to lose their inhibitions and have unattached sex. Very few of them are in a fantastic position to consent. Average situation. Women's hen party on the town. The women have several shots. Lad she went to school with is out that was a bit weird and always fancies her. They hook up. The woman thinks 'fuck it I'll have sex with him' and immediately regrets it the next day. The lad has had quite a few pints and thinks 'I've finally gotten this far and she's gagging for it. Wonder why she wants me tonight. I'd love a kebab right now'. The next day she says that she didn't consent out of embarrassment or another reason when they were the only witnesses, is he screwed by law?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 20:28:48 GMT
It's alright Godwin's Law and that, Gordon Taylor has not long ago compared this case to Hillsborough.
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Slim Jim
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Post by Slim Jim on Jan 8, 2015 20:31:56 GMT
Depends. If they'd been seen together in the club or getting a kebab and there's no sign of force, then it would probably be seen as reasonable he believed she was consenting because there's a prolonged period of time where she seems to him to be aware of what's going on (even if she isn't), multiple indications of consent, etc. etc. If he'd found her that drunk at the kebab van and fucked her in the nearest alley, probably go the other way like Ched Evans. It's a very grey area though and they'd probably try to find evidence of a pattern of behaviour (so if a guy had a history of taking incredibly drunk girls back, it starts to look worse because it begins to look predatory), or evidence via private messages to friends, and so on.
Him being drunk has no bearing on whether it was reasonable to believe she could consent though. Which is odd because if they're drunk enough to not be able to consent either and they bring a counter claim, there have been cases that have been thrown out on the basis that neither party was capable.
I know I said I would stop talking about rape but Mycon's post sounded like there was a touch of personal interest in that scenario.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 20:37:47 GMT
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U R GAY
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Post by U R GAY on Jan 8, 2015 20:42:31 GMT
It's alright Godwin's Law and that, Gordon Taylor has not long ago compared this case to Hillsborough. Haha, just tweeted about this not one minute ago, it's definitely a parallel to Godwin's Law, every football topic if discussed long enough will descend into something to do with Hillsborough. Fuck knows how that Gordon Taylor is in that job, he's fucking useless, if I was a footballer in a sticky spot, the last person I'd want defending my name is that blithering idiot because everything he says just seems to make the situation worse for the person he's defending.
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Post by The Quito Diet on Jan 8, 2015 23:38:52 GMT
I get the feeling most of the people arguing that he shouldn't be allowed to play again because he'll be a role model for young boys across the country really don't understand who Oldham FC are.
Lass just then said "The issue is that young boys everywhere will have his poster on their walls".
Really?
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Post by The Quito Diet on Jan 8, 2015 23:40:29 GMT
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